Saturday, June 20, 2009


Let me comment on your comments, point by point, Scott. but in a disorderly manner! 10] The Repetition being the Handke book that you can do least without! [there's the formula, the right approach! ] I can see. Just coming off a three months involvement in Del Gredos, reading it for the third time, and in a great translation, which also contains perhaps the best five thousand words I have ever read anyone write - the section of the destruction of the Forét de Chaville after that hurricane hit northern France around the year 2000 - I will read it once more for sure... not that I don't have a quibble here and there. Recall the monstrous review by that non-reader Neil Gordon, how nice that Frank Wood agreed with my letter to the bloody NY Times Book Review which of course they never publish when you take one of their regulars apart; or that compleat and total idiot Michael McDonald's [of "The Amurrican Interest" and "The Weakly Standard" inability to read, and mutton dennis dutton only linking to McDonald and not the fine review in WaPo or the L.A. Times, such shits all around, who fancy themselves "conservatives"] I would also have a hard time living also without Hausierer, Short Letter, the two diary volumes Die Geschichte des Bleistifts - for its showing how what thoughtfulness he devotes to his works, chiefly VILAGES in this istance + Gestern Unterwegs, Left Handed Woman, Absence, Juke Box, [Tiredness as an analyst for being told my chap's uncomprehended merely described symptoms!Zvi Lothane, a fine analyst with lots of life experience thinks I'm on the right track analytically with Peter's traumas], No-Man's Bay, and of course sections from many other books... so if you left me on a desert Island with nothing but handke's works... I'd be fairly happy this age... not missing the pony tail parade all that much... 1] Since I translated GOALIE, perhaps it ought to be one of my favorites... but wonderful book though it is, I think the preceding DER HAUSIERER which is not in English [but in the Romance languages, i.e. "L'histoire de crayon"] is by far the better, formally, and in the depth of its accomplishment of being a wholesale victory over fear, than GOALIE which derives from one sliver of it. 2] Among the Yugoslavia titles, my preference is for the first, Abschied vom Traum des 9ten Landes, because it goes to the heart of the contradictory matter: peace, federation, individuation of the tribes... with hints of US National Security Directives under Reagan and West European capitalist economic warfare which threw those tribes back into a regression of fraternal strife... the opposite of Philadelphia. However, his involvement in those matters then made also for a great play, which I think of as THE PLAY ABOUT THE FILM ABOUT THE WAR whose translation you are completing. A play very much in the tradition of Brecht, Grass, Kipphardt, Weiss, Hochhut, Heiner Mueller... the great Post WW II German historically oriented enlightenment tragedies... with Peter's invariable Slavic/ Austrian twist.... and awareness of media... I have written about his involvement extensively... to clarify that for myself, on the part of someone who is also very much of an exhibitionist and became part of the story.... 3] It's "Roger" Straus not Robert and he was a shit in many ways, stingy, a gossip, a clothes horse who was afraid of the slightest speck showing on his vest; and a brute; Peter took instant dislike to him; not an independent thinker, thus he went along with the humanity hyenas latching on to the Serbs and Milosevic as the cause of the wars, and of course would never have published JUSTICE FOR SERBIA; a "taker," he took you the way a pretty meat eating flower eats flies; in the sense that he posted that sign "Nobel prize winners wanted", but no number of such winners would ever ennoble him; and tried to get it for free, or kicked those he took from... My friend Christopher Lehmann-Haupt who wrote the NY Times obits for both Straus and Robert Giroux quotes Giroux [go on line at and learn how to "read" obits] as saying he could never complete his history of the firm because thought of Straus was just too distasteful; totally dishonorable bastard he turned out be be. I was with him at Frankfurt Book Fairs , I turned out to have been his pipe line into postwar German publishing while I was still feeling my way, but I found it pretty quickly. Roger's troubles were many fold: primarily that he was not an obsessive publisher the way Unseld, or Ledig-Rowohlt, or Wagenbach or Gallimard or any number of Brit editor-publisher's were, that he was not sufficiently well read, that he felt inferior to the editors around him, gays most of them at that time, except for Henry Robbins, the only one I really got along with, not that I have anything untoward to say about Robert Giroux and Hal Vussel, but Roger happened to despise gays, I couldn't care less as long as they left my ass alone, and so many of my closest friends, such a robert phelps and michael lebeck happened, by the pure accident of sensibility and sensitivity to language and overlaps of taste, to be gay... Fortunately Roger had the good sense to make the pretty much first rate Jonathan Gallassie his successor... though who knows how his son Roger III would have turned out had he not got into the same kind of row with his dad as Unseld did with his son Joachim who, however, then started a firm of his own, The Frankfurter Verlagsanstalt. Farrar, Straus did 11 printings of KASPAR AND OTHER PLAYS but never made good on the promise to put in my final changes on the KASPAR translation - however, they do exist in the Methuen Volume I of Handke's Collected Plays. I made those changes several dog ages ago at the behest of Peter Brook. More on Kaspar anon. FS+G sold the first half a dozen books to various paperback publishers for reprinting, over and over, and so certainly did not lose any money. However, in all these years I have never seen an ad for a Handke book in this country. Roger was a heavy duty socializer and arm twister and if he had wanted to make sure that novels as of A SLOW HOMECOMING got sound reviewers he was quite able to arrange matters of that kind. I knew Henry Raymond of the Times, too. First mistake of his was to publish A SLOW HOMECOMING jointly in one volume with LESSON OF SAINT VICTOIRE and A CHILD'S STORY [to save money and also on the individual presentation which these three very different books deserved, Peter evidently agreed, it's weird but he does have an obliging side in those matters, also in accommodating to the stupid American title ACROSS for CHINESE DES SCHMERZENS because the FSG editor thought "oh we got a handle on how to sell the book, an old Nazi get's tossed!] So what Roger is complaining to to Unseld is something that was easily remediable by him. Handke has had about ten different editors assigned to him since I left there in 1969. Some first rate, the first several, some not, but each of course incapable or unwilling to construct the history of publication... Handke's current wonderful prose translator Krishna Winston is way behind, too! And often as I have pointed out to her that at the very least she ought to read WALK ABOUT THE VILLAGES... the groundbreaking richest work of his whence most of what followed was whelped.... she has not. Farrar, Straus, or rather its playwriting division Hill + Wang then also passed on the other great plays,HOUR, ART OF ASKKIG while the allegedly good editor Steve Wasserman ran that subdivision and the quality paperbackdivision Noonday Books, prior to becoming editor of the L.A. Times book review. He and I had a recent brief e-mail exchange where he held i didn't know my ass from any old hole in suggesting that maybe Noonday Books, FSG's paperback division ought to have put out some of these titles in quality paper - well, Handke had a good record in paperback and New York Review of Books Books is doing so now, and with a total of three titles to date, Sorrow Beyond Dreams, and a fine intro by Greil Marcus to SHORT LETTER, and a so so by a postmodernistically confused fellow from N+1 for the A SLOW HOMECOMING compendium, Kunkel. Straus and I then we got into a row over what Peter regarded as the best translation he ever saw at that time [mid 80s] of WALK ABOUT THE VILLAGES, Straus welched on a written promise, and in the to and fro, I then showed him up to be a liar, besides, he'd managed to screw me out of half of my editor's royalties, I'd made millions for the bastard, couldn't get a break when I actually needed one for a change, and all because a man I think of as "an asslicking envious little stiletto man", a certain michael dicapua, who had already ruined a lot of my projects there -- Adorno, Fichte, Hugo Ball - in the late 60s happened to be briefly, but just long enough, to be FSG editor in chief. Had it not been for the estimable Robert Giroux, my bringing Handke to FSG around 1967 would never have succeeded, Susan Sontag backing and all. So Roger Straus both published stupidly and failed to render the support a publisher can render. And with all the alleged great friendship between Susan and Roger you don't see any I don't think of authors she must have suggested on the FSG list. Not on the cutting edge intellectually. All the publisher I worked for were crooks with one or the other degree of legitimacy! Unseld was a Grossgauner for Kultur! It was my tough luck of not knowing about "dark" and not knowing Peter long enough to trust him when he pointed out that the man who would become the other working partner in Urizen was "very dark" or at least very German. I didn't know about "dark" back in 1971, boy do I ever know now!Including my own dark sides! My favorite publisher was Ledig-Rowohlt, you signed contract on a napkin at Harry's bar, and if it didn't work out, you dipped the napkin in a whiskey soda where ever. and never mentioned it again. The way Amina Handke dips the napkin on which her father has written "Amina has been a bad girl again" into a glass of water back at Rue Montmorency! [The little charmer had learned to survive her daddies rages!] More on the fall out from all this in the memoir. Not that I didn't meet some fine people in that world, Mike Bessie of Atheneum, Bill Koshland at Knopf, Sam Lawrence at Atlantic Monthly Press, Martin Kessler and Arthur Rosenthal at Basic Books... among other. Meanwhile I've become a semi-tough old tomcat meself! 4] Ditto for the Slovenian/ German dictionary he created for himself while writing The Repetition. I happen to really like his translations of the ancient Greek dramas, but remember that that's what you have to do to be a German classic in your own lifetime! What surprises me is that he's not translated anything from the Latin! Or Spanish meanwhile! 5] Re Kindergeschichte/ A Child's Story. Peter was a hideous father to his first daughter, he even admits as much in that book; also if you read Weight of the World you can see that... and then felt hugely guilty once he woke up to what he had wrought! I get into that as well as some other of the matters in necessary detail in Part II of the nearly completed Psycho-Biographical Monograph and Memoir that will appear at the handke-discussion blog in another week or so [the opening resumé of the case history is already on line. Mr. Handke is quite dark fellow as he himself knows only too well and as he the great exhibitionist shows us in Villages and in Del Gredos. What makes him so unique is his wild desire to be healed, for peace from those monstrous childhood wounds, and the only thing that does the trick for him is by writing, and so reading him closely, his best things, Absence, The Repetition, No-Man's Bay, Del Gredos, Jukebox, Morawian Night now... have a healing effect on me. Go pick a mushroom in honor of Peter Handke. 7] In my experience, Peter is pretty judgmental of other, especially competitors for the Laurel Wreath! 8] re kaspar: let me quote myself from the memoir: "Rather quietly, it seemed out of the nowhere, [1980 Moenchsberg/ Salzburg] Handke mentioned that his play Kaspar was a mistake, a piece that he regretted; an instance that left me speechless, not just not wanting to say what was on my mind: “So I went trough all that trouble and those aches and pains for that great play” and now it’s author regrets authoring it,” something to that effect whooshed through my head. And so I was too stunned to ask why. Later I speculated about why he might feel that way, and what could be held against the piece, and concluded: well, you could say that it was in some ways noisy, the way Oedipal neuroses tend to be; too harsh though I wish all the sheeples saw it at least once to get a faint notion of how they’ve been brain washed! It could be said to be nihilistic I suppose… and as we found out later - since his homecoming had changed Handke and meaninglessness had been at least assuaged if not overcome, mostly… and since Handke had gradually approached and was about to or was already writing W.A.T.V. [the thought of my then impetuous and nonchalant and thoughtless behavior made me feel pretty uncomfortable when the time came to translate the piece! queasy!]. Anyhow, since he had definitely changed …he was no longer the same person the same Kaspar - it is also a self portrait that piece - who had wanted me to make the main sentence of Kaspar more abstract about ten years before… we were in some respects not in tandem… at that time… " 9] Well, LUCIE IN DEM WALD MIT DEN DINGSBUMS,[Lucie in the Woods with the Thingamajigs] what you call a children's story, is also one further chapter of No-Man's Bay and his obsession with mushroom picking , allegedly because these are the most peaceful of beings and then he turns into delicious mushroom stew. You have to be as obsessed with violence as Handke to be so crazed for peace and quiet!


I've hesitated to join the conversation, and only this morning realized
why. I've got a complicated and sometimes troubled and always thankful
and deeply personal and often quirky relationship with these books. I
don't know if I can do this. But I'd like to find a way.

So my divisions and choices and equivocations are as follows:

1. The group that Suhrkamp Verlag published in paperback. I love to see
the colors and uniform size on my shelf: See a photo of some of them
above. I've arranged my books in various ways over the years, but keep
coming back to color and size and publisher as a reasonable and
aesthetic way to make words and things correspond. My favorite of this
rainbow of books may be The Goalie's Anxiety. When Joseph Bloch finds
that his map doesn't exactly correspond to the landscape, he and I
breath deep sighs of relief. The authorities may not be able to find us
after all.

2. The essays and play about the former Yugoslavia have shaped me and
my thinking, have measured and cut and sanded my thoughts after
providing possible blueprints. They affect me so much, in part, because
I worked (am working) hard to translate them, and translation is,
perhaps, the most intensive kind of reading. Because people comment on
these Yugoslavia books, especially, without having read them, they have
been controversial. Language is critical as we move toward or away from
war. That's Peter's point. Journalists and politicians and commentators
don't like to be reminded that they are sloppy with language. So they
attack the messenger. And finally, these books remind me of the trip my
friend Zarko and I took with Peter along the Drina River. It was one of
the defining weeks of my life.

3. The big novels, written after criticism that Peter couldn't write
big novels. Peter showed me a letter from Robert Straus, the American
publisher, to Siegfried Unseld, Peter's German publisher, that opened
with the sentence: "We've got a big problem. His name is Peter Handke."
Straus' problem, of course, was that Peter had started to write a new
kind of novel. And it wasn't selling. Selling lots of copies isn't one
of my criteria, however, and each of these novels has given me hours of
sanity and careful form and slow perception in a precipitous and
unperceptive world. For my favorite of these, see my final entry.

4. Translations. Peter has made a lot of literature accessible to
German readers through his translations from Greek, French, English, and
Slovenian. Although I can read the English, I love his translation of
Shakespeare's A Winter's Tale. I told Peter that I laughed when I came
to the scene where Autolycus was selling ballads and found that one of
them was Dylan's "Stuck in Mobile singing the Memphis blues." Yes, he
said, I allowed myself that. Peter's little German/Croatian dictionary
(he had added "Serbian" to the title so it accurately reflected the dual
nature of the language) was well worn. I'd love to see the shelf of his
dictionaries. Perhaps they would be my favorites of all his works.

5. Although I can't read them, Zarko Radakovic's translations of
Peter's work have to fit in here somewhere. I first heard of Peter
Handke in conversation with Zarko in Tuebingen, Germany. Zarko is an
active and even bold translator. He sees his work with Peter's works as
part of his larger creative project, which includes performance art,
jazz criticism, novels, creative biography (Julija Knifer), and thematic
editing. For instance, at the back of his translation of Peter's
Kindergeschichte, Zarko presents a separate section featuring texts and
works of art about childhood by the likes of Michael Hamburger, Braco
Dimitrijevic, Ilma Rakusa, Tomaz Salamun, David Albahari, Martin
Kippenberger, and yours truly. From Peter Handke's German to
Serbo-Croatian. From Peter Handke's childhood to our own experiences. A
fine textual textile.

6. This interweaving of texts makes it productively difficult to decide
where to quit expanding the discussion of which of Peter's books have
influenced me the most. Zarko's and my books: the first following a
character from Peter's Repetition into Slovenia, and the second an
account of our trip with Peter up the Drina River in the former
Yugoslavia, would never have been written if we hadn't been reading
Peter Handke.

7. Peter has written a lot of notes in the notebooks he carries
everywhere with him, words and drawings to help him remember what he has
seen. He also has reviewed the work of other writers, teaching me in the
process that while it makes good sense to write about how a work works
on the reviewer, its never even interesting to pronounce judgments on
works of art.

8. And there are Peter's plays and poetry. Although it's not in this
photo, but rather in the rainbow one, I'll choose the early Kaspar as
especially important for me, a riff on Herder's claim that we don't
speak language but that it speaks us. Kaspar, by the way, was
wonderfully translated by Michael. The much later play, Voyage by
Dugout, whose premiere I saw in Vienna, left me, as I stumbled out of
the theater, with a fierce resolve to return often to Peter's work as a
powerful antidote to what ails me (and the worlds I live in).

9 Peter wrote a children's book, which I include here as an excuse to
reproduce my friend Thomas Deichmann's photo of Peter and his daughter

10. And finally, because I don't know which of Peter's works is the
best, because I can't know, because I'm not smart enough to figure that
out, I have to say that the book I like the best is the one I've worked
hardest on, the one I've spent the most time with, the one that bears my
marks, the one that I've written about critically ("Postmetaphysical
Metaphysics") and personally (Zarko's and my Repetitions) -- Peter's
novel Die Wiederholung / Repetition.

[for the photos that accompany these somewhat random thoughts, see


Thursday, June 18, 2009

Continuation of "What's your favorite Handke titel + why???"

Dear Lothar,
Your comment [on the bottom of this page] somehow does not appear at
even though I got the  notification! I will post it there myself as part of this post.

Life would of course be simple for us if the discussion involved what car we preferred to drive, and why.
I had a brief period in the early 70s when I liked fast cars - a Pontiac Firebird Convertible and MGB -
and fast girls, and I still have an itch for both. After I left NY in 1985 I had a four door 74 Chevy Malibu, which I
bought used, and took the back seat out, so that my goats, the great Nubian love Chiquita and  Mexican wool goat Amy,
could travel with me, and I had that car for
ten years and put a total of 250 thousand miles on it before I actually managed to sell it in Mexico
for $ 200, that  really is me! Martin Krusche of
still longs for fast muscle cars, but merely memorializes them with photos on his blog that
is otherwise devoted to an interesting crossroad of cultural events in a small town near Graz! That is,
we can observe, read an extraordinary cultural potpourri brewing, and not in one of the cultural
capitals. Albania appears there, all of the Yugoslav republics and more; Austrian politics, fascism keeps
rearing up into it!

I wouldn't say that I am cheating by dividing Handke's work and what speaks to me as being lastingly important
as well as excellently done, into periods. It's something
I would also do with Goethe, but not with Shakespeare's plays for example.
The Germans are said to be always in a "state of becoming"... and that certainly
applies to Handke as a changing writer... thus I note that you don't seem to think any of the early
novels all that important or excellently done. What about my argument that
a novel such as DER HAUSIERER is a demonstration of how Handke conquered fear??
Well, perhaps you have not entertained that argument which I will complete
in Part II of the Psychoanalytic Mongraph, sometime next week.

For Josef Winkler even DIE HORNISSEN is/ was an immensely important book/ document... perhaps he can tell use why! I am still
struggling over it! I am a bit more of a consumer who wants my writers to do at least
half the work for me! Handke then splits into the writer of novels, and of diaries. HORNISSEN
has both qualities, and that I suppose is what makes it so taxing.

I didn't pick any of the diary publications, no matter how important I find them,
especially Bleistift, [L'histoire de Crayon] because it shows us how Handke thinks about, develops
artistic matters [Walk About the Villages in this instance], because, as edited
selections from what Handke noted down during these various periods, they are untrustworthy, no matter
their cumulative impact. For example, WEIGHT OF THE WORLD, the only one that
Farrar, Straus has published [not that they would stand in the way of other publishers
doing them in English] was subsequently re-edited in the German edition, eliminating
some embarrassing matters...  so I regard them as partial primary material, selections, which
actually do not make the claim to be any more than what they are... but as "whole"
completed books...???  By publishing these selections Handke has assured continued
fascination with the material, and attention to his work on the part of scholars,
who now have TWO depositories where they can look at the material and write
their books about him! Handke realized the value of this continued fascination at
the latest when regarding the Kafka and Joyce industries. After all, he's
at least as sly and cunning a writer as Joyce.

To simply make all of BEWOHNER DES ELFENBEIN TURMS    into one essay
is avoiding the issue of what kind of essayist Handke is: which he has answered
with the DREI VERSUCHE [Three Assayings: on Tiredness, Jukebox, and
the Fortunate Day
; as well as a reprieve of that in his Don Juan dance].
I do something similarly encompassing by regarding - usefully for me! - all the early theater work plus HOUR [excluding
DYING OUT]  as one work, a single endeavor, but can make out a strong case for their integral
formal authenticity, and the formal logic out of which they were written.
HOUR is probably the greatest piece of sheer prose Handke has written!
The laws of formalism are both harsh and confining, but generous in what
can be done within it's terms. Think of these laws as they apply to music, Bach,
Mozart, but also the near-undening Afternoon Raga under the Buyon Tree
in Madras!

My favorite Adorno quote always was: "Degustibus disputandum est " - because it
is in that fashion that one discovers how alike and unalike one is from one
another, and if such  a discussion is then conducted in something like the manner
suggested by Professor Habermas [who turned 80 today!], one can reach some interesting conclusions
while engaging in a worth while process.

I myself would  not include PREPARATIONS FOR IMMORTALITY, despite
its extraordinary beginning, because
it has sections where the formalism runs dry. Dem Stueck geht schnell die Puste aus!
Weird but true, perhaps Handke will at some point return to it and make the necessary remedies. I am positive
that anyone as self-critical of his own work as he, is aware of the play's weaknesses.

The screenplay for HIMMEL UEBER BERLIN consists of 1/3 Wenders
and 2/3 Handke who himself scavenged his then texts and added a few poems!
You evidently didn't read my long piece picking apart the screenplay.
Beginning of my becoming a Handke studier, 20 years ago.

There is nothing to "understand" in GREDOS: it is a process that you enter,
and you then participate in a writers being skin-close, totally adhesive to being in love with writing!
Thus that extraordinary ending!

Anyhow, perhaps some others will join us on-line

xx Michael R.

Lothar Struck wrote:
Okay, ich habe mit der Fragerei angefangen.
Schön so zu mogeln und unterschiedliche Perioden und Genres ausfindig zu machen - so kann man mehr Bücher angeben :-)
Die Wiederholung
Versuch über den geglückten Tag / Versuch über die Jukebox
Die morawische Nacht
Langsame Heimkehr
Das Spiel vom Fragen
Über die Dörfer
Zurüstungen für die Unsterblichkeit
Publikumsbeschimpfung (das ist immer noch "aktuell"!)
Gestern unterwegs (vielleicht von allen Büchern das Schönste)
Das Gewicht der Welt
Am Felsfenster morgens
Die Geschichte des Bleistifts
Aufsatzsammlung: Ich bin ein Bewohner des Elfenbeinturms (hieraus kann man soviel lernen)
Gerechtigkeit für Serbien
Film - Der Himmel über Berlin (mit Wim Wenders) 
Besprechungen - eine in der ZEIT über die französischen Filmemacher Huillet/Straub
Übersetzungen - Aischylos; Bove
Der Bildverlust

Wednesday, June 17, 2009


LOTHAR STRUCK, who runs the great German literary Blog, "BEGLEITSCHREIBEN
asked me today which I regarded as Handke's best books, and I replied the following:
in German, whose translation i wil put in {...}

Man sollte es so definieren: das gelungenste jeder der verschiedenen Perioden und der Arten {the question ought to be defined this way: the most successful from the various periods and of its kind:


1] Der Hausierer {The Peddler} not in English but in the Romance Languages...{1967}

2] Der Kurze Brief zum langen Abschied {Short Letter Long Farewell just republished by New York Review of Books Books}

3] Ueber die Doerfer [Walk about the Villages, Ariadne Press,
 this is the summa of Handke}{1982}

4] Die Wiederholung {The Repetition} 1986

5] Die Abwesenheit {ABSENCE - 1987}

6] Versuch über die Jukebox {Essay on the Jukebox} 1989

7] Niemandsbucht {No-Man's-Bay - 1992]

8] Del Gredos [2003]

9] Don Juan [oder: was fuer ein geiler Frauenheld ich Peter Handke doch bin!] [[2005] Translation by Krishna Winston exists, and so is imminent from Farrar, Straus.

und jetzt [10] wahrscheinlich Morawisch {and Morawian Nights which will be available in French and Spanish sooner than in English}

Gedichte: {Poem}

1] Die Einzahl und die Mehrzahl [aus Innenwelt] Singular and Plural
from Innerworld; some copies available via Amazon; the poem itself I use at the handkelecture site. {1967}

] die Sinnlosigkeit und das Glück {Nonsense and Happiness - title poem of self-named book. {1973}
3] Ueber die Doerfer - Walk About the Village, see above,
it has all of Handke, his richest Work.


1] Ritt Bodensee [eigentlich sollte man alle fruehen stuecke mitsamt stunde als ein Werk bezeichnen] {Ride Across Lake Constance - actually one ought to regard all the early pieces and HOUR as one piece}
2] Die Stunde als...{hour, completed 1992}
3] Kunst des Fragens {Art of Asking - 1995}
4] Einbaum...{The Play about the Film about the War - 1999]

: 9te Land. {Booklength essay: the first of his books addressing Yugoslavia, this one deals with Slovenia: The End of the Dream of the 9th Land} not in English, but in the Romance and Slavic languages.



About Me

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MICHAEL ROLOFF exMember Seattle Psychoanalytic Institute and Society this LYNX will LEAP you to all my HANDKE project sites and BLOGS: "MAY THE FOGGY DEW BEDIAMONDIZE YOUR HOOSPRINGS!" {J. Joyce} "Sryde Lyde Myde Vorworde Vorhorde Vorborde" [von Alvensleben] contact via my website